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For all the noise, how is Fiat really doing?

#141 14-Nov, 2009 01:48 PM
Victor
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Joined Date: 25 Jun 2009
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Exactly, the indian market is very different.

Maruti has the eary entry advanatge combined with initial government support to Maruti (alongwith Govt not allowing Tata and others in to market for several years which allowed Maruti to gain a strong foothold)



Last Updated: 14-Nov, 2009 01:48 PM, by Victor
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#142 15-Nov, 2009 10:40 AM
Amit Raisinghani
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Joined Date: 28 Sep 2009
Location: Mumbai
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Posted by Ashish Naik

@ Amit , when you say that GP with T-jet would be good buy , it will be only for niche market unless price it properly. Here the point is not about product superiority but it is about how Fiat capitalise on better products.

Why should the T-Jet be a niche product? If you feel T-Jet will be a niche product then the current engines should be good enough for good sales then why people keep asking for bigger engines? I,personally, believe that the current 1.4 is good enough for most buyers. No one complains about the Swift's old 1.3L unit which has 88bhp.Yes, Fiat has never been able to capitalise on better products - their marketing has been zero and for reasons best known to the partners, Tata seems barely interested in marketing their cars too.

As for pricing, one thing you have to hand over to the italians is that they have always priced their products well. From Fiat's Punto microsite, petrol E pk ex-showroom Mumbai is approx 5.90 lakhs. Add 75,000 for the T-Jet and you have a 119bhp T-Jet avaliable for 6.65 lakhs. The i20 100bhp petrol Asta(O) costs 8.10 lakhs. Sure the i20 has A/T but then you get T-Jet in Punto for almost 1.50 lakhs less! Add another 50,000 for better quality interiors and 16" / 17" wheels and Fiat can still price the car a good 1 lakh less then i20.

In fact, the current pricing of the Punto shows that Fiat has left a fantastic oppurtunity for pricing it's bigger engined variants really well. Diesel E PK ex-showroom is 6.42 lakhs. The VGT with better quality interors for about 80,000 more would result in the VGT being priced for about 7.2 lakhs ex-showroom which is about just 5,000 more then i20 Crdi Asta.



Last Updated: 15-Nov, 2009 10:41 AM, by amitraisinghani
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#143 15-Nov, 2009 11:06 AM
S Menon
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Joined Date: 18 May 2009
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Posted by Amit

The next generation Multiair petrol engines are a gem.

Being an (unfortunate) ex-Alfa Romeo owner, the local distributor decided to try and compensate for the horrible ownership experience and financial loss that I suffered on the 156 by inviting me to a test drive and preview of the MiTo with the Multiair petrol engine.

Unfortunately, for all that fancy technology it falls short on the performance front when compared to the Peugeots, the Renaults and the Seats.  It has only reinforced my opinion about Alfas - cars that look and sound fast, but dont really move as fast.

Frankly, its just a lot of hot air.




Keep those wheels turning!
Last Updated: 15-Nov, 2009 11:08 AM, by Steeroid
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#144 15-Nov, 2009 11:42 AM
Rachit
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Posted by Steeroid

Unfortunately, for all that fancy technology it falls short on the performance front when compared to the Peugeots, the Renaults and the Seats.  It has only reinforced my opinion about Alfas - cars that look and sound fast, but dont really move as fast.

Frankly, its just a lot of hot air.

FYI, the MultiAir increases the low rpm torque. It's more about getting better efficiency and reducing pollution without hampering the overall performance.




I tried this and I had understeer, I tried that and I had oversteer, at the end of the corner I just ran out of talent!
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#145 16-Nov, 2009 11:49 AM
Narendra Singh
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Joined Date: 13 Oct 2009
Location: Jaipur
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Sorry I dont agree above, the terms "mature market". Do you think in India people spare their money and that too about 5-6 lacs without thinking twice or thrice. Indian people are more matured. Yaar vo 10 Rupees bhee bahut soch samajh kar kharch karte hain to jahan lakhon ki baat to .. intana aasaan nahin hai unki jeb se paise nikalna. Vo 10 - 20 nahin 50 baar sochega, discuss karega, tab kahin ja kar decide karega ki kya lena hai.. aur finally vo lega ek MARUTI....  



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#146 17-Nov, 2009 11:22 AM
Opendro
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Being maturity does not mean being cautious. Going for doctor, computer engineer lines, that is being cautious. Being able to decide what suits best for me is being matured. When in a confusion, go along with the masses. Yes, that is instinctive.



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#147 17-Nov, 2009 01:43 PM
S Menon
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Posted by Rachit Hirani

FYI, the MultiAir increases the low rpm torque. It's more about getting better efficiency and reducing pollution without hampering the overall performance.

Yes thats what its supposed to do on paper.  Other engines deliver low-end torque better without all this technology (and unfortunately other perceptible performance parameters too) is what I meant - the term "performance" does not mean just top-speed or acceleration.

I remember one of the mags here did a test drive of the same car sometime back and the verdict was that the car is better than it used to be, but still not better than competition.

If the engines dont deliver a perceptible increase in performance or driveability over other cars, the efficiency part better be really good.  Emissions are part of intangibles that the end customer cannot measure and therefore will not consider as part of his or her buying decision.




Keep those wheels turning!
Last Updated: 17-Nov, 2009 01:49 PM, by Steeroid
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#148 17-Nov, 2009 02:07 PM
Victor
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Hi Narendra, Opendro

I agree that Indians do not easily part with their money and before coming to a major decision like car - they will see whether it is worth.

There are two different mindsets here

First one - looks at both the "new" product and "well known" product, though appreciates the new product but decides to go for "well-known" product or does not even know or consider "new" product and just goes ahead with the "well-known" product.

Second one - looks at both the "new" and "well-known" product and after comparing finds that the "new" product is really worth the money he is paying for or even more than worth the money - especially compared to other "similar priced products" or equivalent products - buys and enjoys the new product.

Neither is wrong. But if everyone always goes for a well known product only i.e just buy what is seen on the road - then we will not be seeing Maruti or Tata cars today on roads. Only the Ambys and Padminis.



Last Updated: 17-Nov, 2009 02:08 PM, by Victor
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#149 17-Nov, 2009 02:47 PM
S Menon
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@ Victor - owning an automobile is not about just the upfront cost or VFM at the point of buying.

It is also very much about ownership experience.  This is where Fiat does not seem to have scored with the last model it sold in this market.

Now I know many of you boys will say your Palio ownership was completely troublefree and stuff like that - we've read a lot of it online and if that were indeed true (one well-known gentleman claims that he has changed nothing but wiper blades in several years of ownership) then that car would have been an automatic and blind choice for those buying a car.

But we've also heard direct feedback from people on the ground - people who have owned multiple vehicles and are not afraid to experiment - about their horrendous ownership experience with the Palio.  One old gentleman we know very well talks about how long it took for him to get the vehicle off his hands because nobody wanted it and he didnt want to keep it either.  Another person we know would rent a car for long drives despite owning a Palio - he finally sold his car this year and tells us what a relief it was to get rid of it.  Yet another long-time Fiat (i.e., 1100, Padmini etc over 30 years) owner speaks with such anger about his Palio ownership experience - this is my father-in-law who finally sold the 'damn car' & went and bought himself an i10 Sportz Auto.  He reportedly wanted to set fire to his car once.

It is direct, first-hand reports such as these that make many of us cynical about the dream stories we hear on the net.  It is stories such as these that become part of word-of-mouth reputation and makes even the most adventurous of car-buyers stay away from certain brands.

I personally have a '54 Millecento, learnt to drive on my uncle's pristine Fiat 124 and my dad's President (amongst other cars), drove a 118NE and loved its engine.  I've really liked some of those cars like the Millecento and the original 124 (not the 118 - keeping that car in one piece was a painful task), but the first 'Fiat' that I spent a lot of money on burnt my hands and caused me so much of pain for a highly over-rated driving experience - I would think quite a few times before considering one again even though there are some cars from the same manufacturer like my friend's Lancia Thesis that I love.  I have nothing personally against the current Fiats, but what I could not digest was the mindless eulogy of these very ordinary and not-so-special vehicles with below-average support and reliability record.  On the net (here recently and elsewhere for a long time) these vehicles were bandied about as god's gift to the motoring fraternity, when in reality they were not very different from other vehicles.

Fiat's biggest enemy on the net is the Fiat Fan.  They create an unrealistically rosy picture of the brand and its vehicles, creating legends around normal vehicles.  Then you go and take a test drive, get a taste of the pathetic (dont blame Tata - the sales & service experience was infinitely worse before this, at least where I come from) sales and support and wonder what all the fuss was about.  Then you go drive a Maruti or a Hyundai - cars that nobody has been tom-tomming about - and you are more than pleasantly surprised.  In fact, you're delighted.

Ask anyone who owned a Tata Sierra or Estate whether he would ever buy a Tata vehicle again in his life, and you will know.  There are exceptions of course, but the majority would say 'never again'.




Keep those wheels turning!
Last Updated: 17-Nov, 2009 03:15 PM, by Steeroid
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#150 17-Nov, 2009 03:03 PM
Bala
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that is a tatally  biased view and strories against fiat,all the stories you had posted about fiat was true with me too but it was for a maruthi swift,i simply couldnt get buyers and finally got rid off it for all the problems the car and the ASS gave me,so it can happen with any car/manufacturer,so far my experience with FIAT has been very good ,friendly prompt service and one feels like visiting the ASS even if there is no necessity for all the courtesy and bonhomie they show,even if i were to buy a car all over again,i would buy only a FIAT

all the cooked up stories would never be a deterrant,after all no other manufacturer gives a car with better build and ride other than FIAT 



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