For all the noise, how is Fiat really doing?

I would say Plastics & Fit/ Finish is an area of improvement for Fiat. And so for ANHC / SX4 (may be their fit/finish is a bit better). It has to look comparable to a high-end C segment sedan

By no means its as bad as its being made in certain discussions.

Nope. Airbags is THE BIGGEST security feature & is damn costlier too. If I were to rephrase your last statement above, it would be...

That means, Hyundai is offering at almost the same Price as Linea but without Airbags & hence offers lesser value for the Price charged

Not necessarily.  You also get a much more advanced and powerful engine, a track record of being trouble-free, better levels of quality & build AND a top-notch support network with the Verna. 

I dont see how it can be lesser value.  Less safety yes, if Fiat offers Airbags at the same price. 

I don't think Verna's engine (even any Hyundai engines) are superior to Fiat's MJD engine. Powerful -Yes, but advanced - NO.
Apart from security, Linea has lots of features, which you will find only 2 leg above cars.

Edit Remark:  Please do not quote preceding post (since deleted).

Individual preferences & thought processes depending on requirements vary. I just reverted to Opendro statement that Hyundai offers same value as Linea replacing value with Price. Airbags are very important to me as a safety feature & hence to me it offers lesser value.

Also, when I was deciding my car, I found Verna engine the most responsive & a stonker. However, this stonker engine without Airbags, with a lighter EPS steering (understeering is common) & with questionable Ride & Handling meant Verna was a dangerous proposition.

I would disagree - 110bhp does not make any car dangerous.  110bhp is peanuts when compared to whats available elsewhere in the world, I wouldnt agree that the Verna has 'too much power to handle' because the power it has is just about adequate.

An Airbag is a good thing to have, but is not the be-all and end-all of safety.  There have been cars in the very distant past which developed much more than 110bhp on older chassis with weaker brakes, no ABS and no power steering absolutely.  Would they all be classified as unsafe?  Yes they have relatively lesser safety features, but that does not make them unsafe.  I am not advocating a return to the stone-age nor am I defending the lack of airbags on some cars (even though its only an option on the Fiat and is probably bought by 1% of the few numbers they sell every month) - but calling a vehicle 'less value for money' because it doesnt offer airbags as an optional extra while at the same time disregarding all the benefits that come as STANDARD on other cars is stretching logic to the edge of reality.

Something interesting happened in the meantime, though:

Well a friend of mine just had a test drive of the Manza and came back gushing - he said he cannot believe that its the same engine that sits under the Fiat's bonnet, the difference in performance is astounding.  In his words (and he drives a mad Swift which features an upsized turbo, custom-code remap, bilstein suspensions and tarox brakes) "this is the first Tata that actually makes me WANT to buy it - I even opened up the bonnet to confirm that they had not hidden a Pete's Box in the engine bay".

Amazing how the same engine can behave differently?

To Steeroid:

1. 110bhp is peanuts when compared to whats available elsewhere in the world, I wouldnt agree that the Verna has 'too much power to handle' because the power it has is just about adequate.

Reply: Yes, you get cars with much more power, but almost all of them have airbags. in many cases more than jus the two we have in India.

2. There have been cars in the very distant past which developed much more than 110bhp on older chassis with weaker brakes, no ABS and no power steering absolutely.  Would they all be classified as unsafe? 

Reply: Yes, they are very "unsafe" compared to the cars of today. It was due to the poor track record in terms of safety of those cars, that we have some of the regulations about seat belts and airbags etc.

3. calling a vehicle 'less value for money' because it doesnt offer airbags as an optional extra while at the same time disregarding all the benefits that come as STANDARD on other cars is stretching logic to the edge of reality.

Reply: Agreed - but then every one his/her own perception of value. unlike price, it is not very objective. What may be of value to me may be absolutely useless for you.

4. Amazing how the same engine can behave differently?

Reply: engine specification is one thing, but tuning it according to a vehicle, power transmission (clutch and Gears), and even tyres make a hell lot of a difference when you talk about performance of two different cars with the same engine.

Finally, to add to my point of perceptions on value for money, especially regarding airbags, I have met a number of people who really think airbags are not required. Most people argue that normally we would never need it on road. Some say that you dont need those if you are driving in city alone. In my previous office I have seen two accidents (one involving santro, and other involving an Indica), where occupants got severely hit inside the city. They both claimed the sppeds of their vehicles to be in the range of 80 - 90. Both would have just walked away fine if there were airbags. Seat belts are not reliable enough but they do offer some safety. However, in conjunction with airbags, they would really make you safe (of course, one can still kill himself if he wants). I decided agianst Verna simply because of the fact that it did not had an "option" of airbags then.

I always beleive you need to be unlucky just once. It does not matter if you drive alright or there is no fault of yours. For me airbags offer far greater value for money than some of the other features. Others do disagree.

Pls recheck - my post does not say only 110 BHP makes the car dangerous. It says that engine coupled with some 3-4 things makes it a dangerous proposition. And it sure does. For that you'll have to check each & every item individually

1. Airbags - There are discussions on forums that Airbags & ABS should be made mandatory. I would not go that far. But, all new-gen high-end C segment cars come with option of Airbag. Verna does not have an option at all. What is Hyundai thinking not giving even an optional Airbag in Verna whereas giving it in an i20 which is a segment below Verna ?

2. Try to check EPS steering in Verna v/s HPS steering in Fiesta/ Linea. You'll know what I'm talking about - of precise movement, steering feedback, no understeering, no excess lightness etc

3. Alongwith both the above AND the typical Ride & Handling questions in Verna, try driving it at high speeds on Express Way & try other cars in the segment particularly Fiesta & Linea. You'll know which car gives you reassurance more comparatively. Its true sometime back the market used to drive even the Indica's on Expressways at high speeds but today now the options are available, the market has become competitive & moved on.

That was in response to a statement which said Verna (even without Airbags - a fact which came out only after debating it) is offering at the same value as Linea which is also stretching the logic to the edge.

Care to elaborate more? Is he comparing Manza engine with Swift as Swift also comes with the same MJD ?

If he is talking about Linea/ Punto, then there is a big difference how the same engine is tuned in different cars for specific reasons. Someone who loves driving torqy Swift like your friend would never like Linear Punto/ Linea. Swift is tuned to give higher surge/ spright whereas Punto/ Linea are tuned for Linear Power delivery. Some people like initial surge others like Linear power. Neither your friend is wrong nor others are wrong who like linear power. Its their individual preferences.

He was comparing it with both the Swift and the Linea.

I do understand what you're trying to convey.  I own one vehicle that has poor initial acceleration but packs a wallop in the mid-range, I also have one that does its initial acceleration very well with over 450 bhp and 600nm of torque at its disposal. 

However, the Linea - in my personal experience - is neither here nor there.  It obviously lacks upfront acceleration and while in-gear acceleration redeems it to an extent it is still nothing to write home about.  Its not like the vehicle moves with tremendous urgency through the gears - it just about manages to keep up with the traffic.  In short, it is a vehicle with just about adequate motive power.  Only the Logan and the old Indigo Turbo (original, not the remapped and intercooled TDi) feel slower.  Thats amongst diesels.  Amongst the Petrols the vehicle must surely be the slowest around.

That is what I have felt, and I have always wondered why a customer should make such a compromise because it is not for want of choice in the market - almost every other vehicle in the market has better power delivery than the Linea, including the Fiesta that has a 1.4 litre engine rated at a lowly 70bhp or something like that.  In fact driving the Fiesta D makes you wonder where the numbers in the Linea MJD came from - that vehicle moves reasonably well when you consider the numbers that its engine churns out.  And is much more economical to run too, from what I hear about the fuel consumption figures.  It only has the slightly suspect Ford ASS against it with the inconsistent service and high cost of spares.  In comparison, the Linea's fuel efficiency is allegedly par for the course - neither of these are based on personal experience as I havent driven either vehicle long enough to comment on fuel efficiency first-hand.  Besides, I'm not super-sensitive about economy - as long as the vehicle gives reasonable / average economy I'm not too cut up about 2 or 3 kmpl this way or that.  Which is why I feel they should've extracted more from that 1.4 TDCi from Ford even if it meant compromising a bit on economy.

Yes we're only talking about the engine here.

Vahanpujari's real name is also Amit like mine but we are two different human beings .

"However, the Linea - in my personal experience - is neither here nor there.  It obviously lacks upfront acceleration and while in-gear acceleration redeems it to an extent it is still nothing to write home about"- Steeroid

Everyone says Linea has poor acceleration. It is not true that "It is neither ther nor here" but actually it is positioned exactly where the performance is normally needed.

Yes initial pick up of 0 to 30 may not be good. Yes, acceleration beyond 140 KMPH is not good. But both the low and high ranges are very rarely used. Linea MJD delivers perfomance where needed - in the mid range.

If we look at cc, bhp, torque, power and everything on paper it looks not impresive performance wise. But it is a very comfortable to drive in City as it has good enough low end grunt combined with driveablity (even 15KMPH in 4th gear)

Coming to acceleration -

0 to 100 - Linea - 15 seconds, Optra - 10.9, City - 10.3, Civic - 9.6, Verna - 11.3, SX4-12.1, Manza - 15.6, Dzire - 14.3 Fiesta - 17.13

But

20 to 80 - Linea - 11.8, Optra - 12.8, City - 12.9, Civic - 12.3, Verna - 12.3, SX4 – 13.75, Manza - 15.5 Dzire - 13.2 Fiesta - 12.52

40 to 100 - Linea - 13.6, Optra - 14.9, City - 16.7, Civic - 16.4, Verna -  16.4, SX4 – 20.92, Manza - 21.03 Dzire - 17.8 Fiesta - 16.37

If you drive in a race with clear tracks in front of you, then Linea will lag - which is not real life situaion. You are alreday at or above 30 and in this normal range - no other sedan can beat Linea in acceleration - Fiesta, Verna, Civic, City included